Why Can’t Boys Just Figure It Out?
I have a straight female friend who regales me occasionally with tales of the latest Boy she is interested in, and I’m always fascinated by the things she takes for granted about her role in her dating relationships.
“I invited Boy A to go on a hike, because I know we both like hiking. Do you think I was too forward?”
or
“Boy B said I should let him know if there was a fun lecture I wanted to go to, but I’ve invited him to a chamber music performance instead. Do you think that looks too aggressive?”
or
“Boy C and I went out on a few dates, but then he didn’t call for two weeks. When he finally called I let him know that WASN’T OKAY.”
So, basically, a woman can ask a guy out, but she’s walking a fine line. If she’s too retiring and never takes a risk, maybe she won’t get dates; if she’s too outgoing, maybe she’ll be viewed as mannish and dominating, and she won’t get second dates. Of course, my friend’s last comment also shows the double standard men are held to: in the earliest stages of a relationship, the guy is supposed to call. If he doesn’t, the girl can call him… but she risks seeming desperate. Really she’s supposed to wait for him to call her. And if he doesn’t, she’s supposed to agonize over it with her friends for several days before (maybe!) picking up the phone.
Another straight female acquaintance, erinannie, recently wrote a short blog post in which she said, “If my marital status is always going to depend upon me making the first move, I’m going to be single forever.”
The commenters sympathized thusly:
“Why can’t boys just figure it out?” one said.
“You shouldn’t have to [make the first move]. Men need to be men,” wrote another.
And: “I am so tired of my guy friends telling me that I need to make the first move. I am not going to do their job!”
“Was I too forward?” “He didn’t call for two weeks.” “Men need to be men.” “I am not going to do their job.” Once again, I’m glad I’m not heterosexual. Straight guys have it tough! In order to be seen as “real men,” they have to always make the first move, ask the girl out, pay for her way, call the girl back after the date—but not too soon! Straight girls have it tough, too: they’re supposed to attract the man’s gaze (as erinannie puts in, “I have done everything except lay down across his desk naked and poured chocolate across me to get his attention”), but—no matter how interested they are in the guy in question, they are supposed to wait for him to ask them out. (Am I missing anything? I was never very good at the straight mating game.)
Things are changing for straights, but homosexual relationships are still so much easier in this regard. Since both people are men or both are women, neither is “the man” and neither is “the woman.” Either can take initiative, either can pay for the date (or they can just split the check), and either can make that after-date call.
This isn’t to put erinannie and her dating practices on the spot. I understand being timid or otherwise reluctant to make the first move. Rejection is a bitch. As I explained in my own comment on erinannie’s post, I would never have had a boyfriend and would be dateless now if it depended on my taking the initiative, because that’s my personality. What I don’t understand is buying into the whole American patriarchal culture of dating and courtship.
So, straight people! Speak up. Why do you or don’t you follow the patriarchal norm in dating and relationships? Guys, do you mind if a girl asks you out, pays for a date, calls you first, etc.? Girls, do you mind doing the asking, paying, calling? Why or why not? What would you say the actual norm is these days, and what negative consequences are there for breaking it?
Non-straight people! What are your relationships like? Egalitarian? Patriarchal? Dom/sub? Butch/femme? Poly? What dating rules do you feel you must follow? People are dying to know!
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December 3rd, 2008 at 2:06 pm
I’m glad I’m married. I loathed all those years of being shy, knowing I needed to be aggressive, trying to take the lead and then obsessively critiquing my performance (“was I too forward? Not aggressive enough? Was I charming, or just an ass? I loath me”). So glad that’s over with. I probably never would have gotten married had I not found someone who, while also shy, was not terribly subtle about expressing her interest.
My sister is going through similar issues to your friend. If she takes the first step, the guys think she’s too aggressive. If she waits, nothing happens. And this is in supposedly liberal and modern Boston (albeit in the Mormon community)!
December 3rd, 2008 at 2:27 pm
I don’t know what the norm is. But if there was a guy I liked, I asked him out. I was aware that I could be seen as too aggressive for doing the asking, but I’m just not the type to wait and see. If a guy couldn’t get over that aspect, he wasn’t worth more effort. And usually, during that first date I could tell if he liked me, or just wanted to be friends. But I was also insecure and tended to brush guys off, even when I knew they liked me. So, my dating life was ridiculous at best.
Also if I was doing the asking, I would pay for the date. Or try to pay – some guys insisted that they pay for everything. Or go half and half; I always preferred to at least pay for myself.
My relationship with Stephen started because I was forward and he liked that. By that time, I had become more confident with myself so I wasn’t brushing him off or pushing him away. And since he liked me as well, it worked out.
December 3rd, 2008 at 10:15 pm
I am much subtler with girls than I am with guys. With guys, I just say, “I think you’re hot, let’s do something sometime.” With girls, I am very, very shy. I think I feel like I have more to lose around them? I don’t know. Maybe I am afraid I will scare them off if I am too forward.
December 3rd, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Can’t wait to read the responses! I’m such a loser when it comes to dating. I suppose its pretty obvious to the rest of the world why I am 33 and single!
December 3rd, 2008 at 11:56 pm
erinannie, don’t give away all your secrets! You could totally pass for a girl in her twenties. Er, in a good way, of course.
December 6th, 2008 at 10:16 am
I can’t say I ever had the opportunity to date women, and with men, I can’t say I ever really dated. My best friends were always boys and eventually we’d end up together. The two long-term relationships I had before I met my husband were from best friends who eventually became more than friends. This is pretty much the way to go, in my opinion. With my husband, I was pretty forthright. We both hated dating, so we just didn’t date. We just hung out. We had an awesome friendship and we always split the tab or whomever was in less dire financial straits would cover it. I usually came up with things to do because I knew more about what was going on around town, but we rarely went out, because we’re both homebodies who would rather watch a movie at home with popcorn than go to, of all things, a chamber orchestra concert. (Yuck!) (I mean that with all kindness.) We never worried about impressing each other because we were just friends. When it came to physical intimacy, if I wanted it, I went for it, and same for him. These Rules systems that women follow today are too constipating to allow real connections to form. If you can’t be yourself with the guy, or girl, why bother?
December 6th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
At this particular point in my life, I’m not really interested in playing games, so I’m with Chandelle on this one. Assuming I decide I want another relationship, I would hope it would stem from a friendship that I was already comfortable with. My little sis is down in Provo and suffering from the kinds of confusion that erinannie faces. I just want to rattle her sometimes. She’s so much better than the games she plays. And yet, what is Provo but one big dating game?
Also, since I’ve left the church and started hanging out with peers, a lot of the games seeme to have disappeared. I don’t worry about signals I may be giving or anything like that. I stay pretty open, flirt a little, discuss serious stuff a little, and just try to be myself. As for asking someone out, not even ready to go there, so I couldn’t say, but I imagine if I do get ready to go there, I won’t have a problem doing it. I’m not the same woman I was the first time I played the dating game.
December 7th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Yet another reason I’m so terribly glad that I’m gay.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Sean, I have a few straight guy friends who would appreciate your article and would lament over all the unsaid rules of dating out there. I am sure, as you wrote, the gals have the same issues. Perhaps it is time to just turn the tables on tradition and write new rules? What do you think?
December 13th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Chandelle, I far prefer letting a relationship develop instead of dating formally. First dates are awful. Hanging out is so much more fun—and you are much more likely to get to know the other person in that kind of low-pressure setting anyway.
Lessie, if feel for your sister. Provo was a TERRIBLE place to date when I was there, and that’s ignoring the fact that I was expected to date people I wasn’t attracted to. As for yourself, good luck getting back into the dating scene, and I’m sure you’re right—when you’re ready to go out, you’ll be ready to ask someone out, too.
tasithoughts, I absolutely believe it is time for some new relationship rules, maybe ones that aren’t based on outdated gender roles. In fact, I don’t think they should be based on gender roles at all, but on common sense, mutual respect and a sense of personal responsibility.
In other words, I hate traditional marriage and am working in secret with my gay brothers to destroy it and replace it with anarchy and orgies. :D
December 14th, 2008 at 12:31 am
“Provo was a TERRIBLE place to date when I was there”
That statement was four letters too long.
December 14th, 2008 at 9:50 am
whoops–I meant four words to long.
December 16th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Dude, I’m all about anarchy and orgies ;-D