“900-foot Jesus? Meh. Get back to me when you got a 1,000-meter Buddha.”
In the book review that got him embroiled in the current wave of compatibility/accommodationist debates, Jerry Coyne writes,
[S]upernatural phenomena are not completely beyond the realm of science. All scientists can think of certain observations that would convince them of the existence of God or supernatural forces. . . . [I]f a nine-hundred-foot-tall Jesus appeared to the residents of New York City, as he supposedly did to the evangelist Oral Roberts in Oklahoma, and this apparition were convincingly documented, most scientists would fall on their knees with hosannas.
When I read that, I raised my eyebrows and said to myself, “Huh. That wouldn’t be enough, in itself, to convince me that there is a god.”
Now, the appearance of a 900-foot-tall Jesus would be very hard to explain, there’s no getting around that. And it would depend on what you meant by “god.” But, for instance, I honestly can’t think of any evidence that would convince me of the existence of the Christian god (an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, unchanging being with no body that exists everywhere and nowhere), or of the Mormon god (an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, unchanging being with a shining, immortal physical body). These are just such far-fetched assumptions—”all-knowing,” “all-powerful,” “immortal”—that you’d need an infinite amount of evidence to support them. And, given the amount of suffering in the world, the evidence for the existence of a benevolent, all-powerful being is rather less than lacking.
Of course! I’ve heard the religious people say. If God appeared in all His glory and convinced everyone of His existence in an instant, it would take away everyone’s ability to have faith in Him!
Ah. So either we can imagine the existence of an invisible, implausible, omnipotent being who meddles in our lives continually but is so phenomenally successful at erasing all his tracks that we have no evidence for his existence at all,
OR
there is no such invisible omnipotent imaginary being. We are who we appear to be: flawed, intelligent animals, who must learn to live together in a flawed but amazing world with other flawed, amazing creatures, with no help or hindrance from “on high.”
I know which option I find more compelling, more defensible, more reasonable, and ultimately more satisfying. What about you?
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July 11th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
The deal breaker for me with the Mormon God is the speed of light. Or, to put it another way, if God is traveling at the speed of light, what is His mass? Hahahahaha.
P.S. The thought of eternal life gives me the creeps.
MoHoHawaii´s last blog ..The Main Street easement
July 11th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
You should give CS Lewis’ “the Problem of Pain” a good read. I think you would enjoy it.
David´s last blog ..Twilight vs. Buffy
July 12th, 2009 at 12:13 am
MoHoHawaii, I was so disappointed at the reaction of people on my mission when I told them about the “forever family.” Typically, people would look over in horror at their spouse and say, “I’ve been looking forward to finally getting rid of him/her! Now you’re saying we have to be together forever??!”
So yeah, I finally understand why eternal families and eternal life aren’t appealing to everyone. Especially now that they don’t appeal to me. :D
David, thanks for the recommendation, but I kind of really, really despise the C.S. Lewis theology I’ve read. Is The Problem of Pain different enough from his other stuff that it won’t make me vomit and/or roll my eyes so hard they fall out? Just to warn you, I am utterly unimpressed by the Christian attempts at theodicy I’ve encountered. Is this going to be more of the same?
July 12th, 2009 at 7:04 am
Yeah…I’m going with Occam’s Razor on this one. Unimpressed.
Chandelle´s last blog ..ew
July 12th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I don’t understand why someone would assume a 900 foot tall Jesus was proof of god. It could be millions of different things: hallucinogenic laced water, a creepy Thanksgiving Day parade balloon, a Tralfamadorian trick. Who knows? Size doesn’t equal divinity.
Eternity, stuck with my bat shit crazy great-grandmother no less, sounds like a nightmare. I spend so much of my life just bitching about how bored I am already. I love the idea of my energy going back into the universe much more then any heaven scenario I’ve read about yet.
There is no way to be a hundred percent sure anything doesn’t exist without a measure of faith, but I honestly believe the Abrahamic god cannot exist. There is just no way.
alana´s last blog ..I promise I’m not pink obsessed
July 13th, 2009 at 6:33 am
I don’t mind the God thing so much. Actually I have no trouble believing in the possibility of God/gods/a creator who may have given the ole evolution process a nudge here and there (not necessarily the LDS/Christian version of a creater)/etc. I mean, either there are higher beings (or at least other beings) or there aren’t. Actually a psychic I met had an interesting take on it. I must blog that one day.
What I do have issues with is the assumption that if God exists, ‘he’ must be:
a) all-powerful
b) good/just
c) concerned with/interested in the human race.
It’s nice to imagine that a powerful being must be benevolent; even that their power relies on them being good and using power justly, but are these things in any way borne out in human experience?
Not that I agree that pain and suffering are evidence that there is no god either. I do think the rather sound argument that God leaves it to humans to fix the problems in the world, because ‘the only way to remove the consequences of free will is to remove free will’ is less convincing when accompanied by doctrine concerning God’s intervention in human lives. Can’t have it both ways.
chosha´s last blog ..meme for grownups
July 13th, 2009 at 10:01 am
I personally am intensely skeptical about the existence of higher beings giving “nudges” to nature or evolution, because science works perfectly well without such a hypothesis.
[As an aside, one of my favorite atheist quotes is from the great 18th-century applied mathematician/physicist Laplace, who, when Napoleon asked why his monumental work on the movement of celestial bodies contained no mention of God, famously replied, « Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là » (I had no need of that hypothesis).]
In other words, hidden gremlins and demigods may very well monkey around with our DNA and play merry hell with our lives, but with no evidence for their existence, a) such a hypothesis is not scientific, and thus must be ignored by scientific models and b) as far as personal belief goes, I still think it’s much more reasonable to assume they don’t exist.
Re: pain and suffering: Arguments from free will don’t really convince me, since it’s hard to quantify how much suffering is due to the actions of others vs. natural disasters, accidents, disease, famine, etc., which generally can’t be linked to free will. It’s hard for me to square the idea of an all-powerful, benevolent god with the realities of this world.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Sing it, brother. Not much of a God who makes the universe appear as though He doesn’t exist and then punishes those who accept the evidence.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:35 am
I’ve had too many strange experiences to be able to agree there’s no guiding hand in the universe, but I couldn’t claim certainty on what form it takes either. All I know is when I desperately need something, it comes to me. When I am needed by someone else, I do things that completely defy logic and prior planning to arrive at their aid.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Easy solution: God is neither all-powerful nor all-knowing. And isn’t any more benevolent than the rest of us. Ok, not an easy solution, but the small god theory (a god who is better than us, but constrained in all sorts of ways) is the only one that’s working for me now.
Naturally, that raises the whole question of why have a god at all. But, meh, I have no rational defense on that front. Just a sentimental one.
alea´s last blog ..my personal problems are mostly described with homophones
July 13th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Braden, amen.
Karen, I had a lot of experiences I viewed as miraculous when I was a believer. Probably everyone experiences startling, hard-to-explain coincidences from time to time. I simply view such occurrences with a more skeptical eye now.
alea, you’ve raised the first question I would have had for you—i.e., why believe in such a wimpy god at all—so I’ll move on to the second: if such a wimpy being exists, why would you call it a “god”? Is such a being worthy of worship? Would an alien or mutant with the same powers and attributes you’ve named be worthy of worship, or of the label “god”?
July 13th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
For me, the “god” part comes in through being somehow involved in creation (either of us as spirits or giving the green light to the whole big bang, etc) and being our papa. And his wanting to help, even though he can’t (or won’t, or whatever). So, if there were a mutant/alien who had made me, then, yeah, he’s worthy of worship.
I admit, though, that theism is basically indefensible. And, there’s a good chance that I’m delusional, what with my primary motivations in belief being a combination or inertia and a desire for comfort.
alea´s last blog ..my personal problems are mostly described with homophones
July 13th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
What good would appearing to everyone do? You yourself said that just him appearing wouldn’t be enough to convince you that he exists. So what good would appearing do if those who don’t believe in him will continue to disbelieve?
And so it goes to the faith thing, conserving energy if you will. Why appear to everyone when a feeling in your heart, a gut feeling, that something is true, like the existence of God, will do more to propel someone (usually) to help out his fellow man than viewing God for an instant.
Sam, the Nanti-SARRMM´s last blog ..Slow-Mo George
July 13th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
I don’t consider them miraculous exactly. Just not coincidence. Why, when I decided that (having my roommate’s car) I wanted to spend lunch at Sugarhouse Park, did I end up at a gas station on North Temple? I didn’t need gas or anything. I just felt like I needed to go get coffee. FROM THAT GAS STATION. Ridiculous. But there was this kid there that needed a ride and had no money. Things like that happen to me frequently. I just feel guided to the people I need to meet and the places I need to be.
July 13th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Geez, the world is so full of desperate and needy people, if you’re open to helping people you’ll need to fend them off with a rake just to walk down the street. Nothing miraculous whatsoever about finding a person who needs a ride. Especially at a gas station.
Chandelle´s last blog ..ew
July 13th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
alea, I guess I agree that a being that created the world and/or humanity has some claim on the title “god,” even if it’s a small-g god. I’m still not sure why you would necessarily worship such a creator. I mean, my parents created me, and, while they have their moments, I sure as hell don’t worship them, or see them as being worthy of worship.
Sam, I did say that the singular appearance of a 900-foot-tall Jesus wouldn’t convince me of the existence of deity, and that you’d essentially need an infinite amount of evidence to show the existence of either the Christian or Mormon gods (and that’s not even counting the fact that I find their very definitions to be incoherent and contradictory).
On the other hand, if a superhuman being really existed and intervened in our lives and in nature in a visible way that could not be otherwise explained, of course I’d believe in that being. As would most if not all scientists.
Also: where you say “faith” and “a feeling in your heart,” I say “belief unsupported by evidence” and “probably excitement, hormones, low blood sugar or other physiological reaction.” Not a foundation I’m comfortable basing my life decisions values on, but to each their own, I guess.
Karen, I’m glad you’re open to helping people, whatever the reason. Uh, maybe be careful about giving rides to strangers? Maybe that is my misanthropy talking. :D